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Post by Deleted on Jul 23, 2011 10:36:24 GMT -5
Hey young0469. Did you ever hear of a former Boy Scout named James Dale? Years ago, we both were on the Joan Rivers Show. I suggest you Google James Dale and look under the law suit named Boy Scouts of America V Dale. I think you will find it interesting.
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Post by Youn0469 on Jul 23, 2011 23:39:41 GMT -5
Yes, I am familiar with BSA v. Dale. The Boy Scouts is a private organization and I agree that they should be able to choose who is able to participate and vice versa.
However, it is in MY OPINION, that this "rule" against homosexuals, agnostics and atheists only stems from the Mormon and somewhat Catholic imposition of this rule on the Boy Scouts. Correct me if I am wrong, but prior to the 1990's this rule was not in place. It only came about to please the fundamentally Christian groups and alienates the more liberal groups like Unitarian Universalists and the UCC.
I have had many debates on online forums for eagle scouts, one particular debate was with a devout mormon. Personally I have nothing against religion, except when it comes to it imposing its views on me. This guy used the arguments that gays cannot lead clean life styles, its against god, they are kiddie rappers, they are predatory and are more likely to have diseases such as AIDS. You can imagine the field day I had with his argumentation and reasoning...
The Boy Scouts Mission states: The mission of the Boy Scouts of America is to prepare young people to make ethical and moral choices over their lifetimes by instilling in them the values of the Scout Oath and Law. and the Vision states: The Boy Scouts of America will prepare every eligible youth in America to become a responsible, participating citizen and leader who is guided by the Scout Oath and Law.
The Scout Oath and Law: Scout Oath On my honor I will do my best To do my duty to God and my country and to obey the Scout Law; To help other people at all times; To keep myself physically strong, mentally awake, and morally straight. Scout Law A Scout is: Trustworthy Loyal Helpful Friendly Courteous Kind Obedient Cheerful Thrifty Brave Clean Reverent
No where do I see that a scout CAN'T be gay in these statements. The argument of those who oppose homosexuality within Boy Scouts is merely by conjecture based on their religion. In fact, there are many within Boy Scouts who oppose the rule set forth by the National council and think that membership should be determined by the individual unit rather than by an entity that has very little to do with the day to day operations of a unit.
Also, the Boy Scouts tout diversity. They have an award for diversity. They want scouts to be knowledgable about different groups, but somehow manage to neglect the GLBT. TO me this is inconsistent with that ideology. If you want to teach scouts about diversity you cannot be selective.
Another inconsistency within the BSA is that is doesn't imposes these membership rules on its other programs for older teens. They have it for one but not the other, why?
Moreover, the scouting program is all about youth development for future leaders and citizens. I think it would be beneficial to the program to not only accept youth who define as gay and bisexual, but also females and those who have special needs into the mainstream boy scout program. This would allow every one to benefit by learning how to work with people of various backgrounds and to become an effective leader for society. They can hide these groups in boy scouts, but not in society and eventually these scouts will have to work with them. So why not teach them how to do so properly?
The Scout Law and Oath mention a lot about friendliness and the golden rule type stuff. Personally I think we are going against that by not treating others the way we want to be treated and not being friendly toward those who are not in the program. Essentially the BSA National Council is stating, by not accepting agnostics, atheists and homosexuals in the program that it is okay to marginalize them. I've been in troops where I was picked on based on the perception that I was gay. This is not okay because scouting is a "safe haven".
I could go on and on, but I got to go pack for camp. Look, I love the scouting program. I believe in its possibilities. I think that a scout can learn a lot and become a great person because of it. I was changed for the better because of scouting and I want to be able to help other scouts, like I was, to learn how to be strong capable young adults who others can look at and say "That's a great person, I know I can count on him."
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Post by burner on Jul 24, 2011 2:33:19 GMT -5
Yes, I am familiar with BSA v. Dale. The Boy Scouts is a private organization and I agree that they should be able to choose who is able to participate and vice versa. Personally I find discrimination against anyone based upon the "group" they belong to, be it racial, ethnic, gender etc., to be repugnant and stupid. Having said that, I agree with you, young0469, that private groups should be able to choose who may participate. But those who seek to invoke that freedom to discriminate should NOT expect to receive any respect or priviliges from the taxpayers and should be treated as any other private group.
BSA seems to want it both ways. They want the right to discriminate as a "private group" but bitch when they're denied free or reduced rate for the use of public facilities for meetings or other activities.
You're right. The organization does great things for young boys in many ways. It is a shame that these same boys must suffer for the sins of their elders when, in seeking donations and assistance for their activities, people like myself refuse to contribute. It pains me to pass by the table without contributing, and see the look of disappointment on the face of a poor little kid. It's not his fault. Yet because of the bigots who dictate these rules he's the one who suffers...and he doesn't even know why. It's sad.
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Post by bluepride on Jul 24, 2011 11:43:43 GMT -5
Josh, I'm glad that you think for yourself and make your own decisions, including being a Scout. I especially like that you put yourself into their midst and say who you are. Nothing worse than self-segregation, in my mind. Of course, you realize that you've stepped out of the mass collective mindset of the gay community by doing this. You're only supposed to have opinions that coincide with the "community" and you are never allowed to think for yourself and take action. Otherwise you risk ostracism from the "community". (In case you didn't realize it, I'm being sarcastic here! ) While the BSA shouldn't discriminate against anyone, that doesn't mean that you or anyone else who is gay shouldn't be part of them. You ARE part of them whether they or anyone else likes it or not. My take on the gays vs the Boy Scouts thing is this: Let the adults fight it out in court and stop discriminating against the kids who are scouts, whether they are straight or gay. We as gay people scream and yell about discrimination,etc, at the drop of a hat but we engage in it just as much, if not more than straights. There. I said it and I'm glad. I defy anyone to challenge me on this. I've stepped out of the collective mindset once again, risking the wrath of reactionary and hysterical fellow gays who think from point A all the way to point B. Never point A to point Z. (Or at least, hardly ever!) I like it when gay people bust through the wall and put themselves into arenas that typically are not the "norm" for gays. To draw a line in the sand and say, "Here I am. I dare you to discriminate". So, kudos to you for that. Having said all that.....I agree with Burner....that I wouldn't necessarily financially support the BSA or whoever it may be....because of the discrimination issue. Just because I think you or anyone else should belong if you want to, I still reserve my right to not give them money. That goes for BSA or other groups. Example: After 9/11, the Salvation Army did a lot of work at Ground Zero and the Morgues, providing food, resting areas, counseling and a lot of other things. Now, I'm NO great fan of them by any means, BUT......on those long, cold, smelly nights at the morgue I knew they were only about 50 yards from me. They had heat controlled tents and a comfortable dining area and cots to nap on. And the food was outstanding. All you could eat, all you could drink (soda, coffee, tea...no alcohol!) And all of the food was freshly cooked and nutritious, even at 4AM. So....for that I'm grateful. They got me through some rough midnights after working the previous 3X11 tour. Again, in the long run I'm NO fan of them for their policies but they did good in what I just described. And I'm glad they were there and so are a lot of colleagues. I don't have any use for them otherwise, these days though. (Sorry I went off on that tangent!) Anyway, while this seems to be a great topic to discuss, it might be better if it was in it's own thread, don't you all think?? I leave it up to your (member's) initiative because it's too hot to post as much as I ( or we ) usually do! So....there...I tied it in to the Baby It's Cold Outside thread! Gee, I'm so clever!
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Post by Deleted on Jul 24, 2011 11:56:03 GMT -5
Burner. on many occasions, I have walked up to a table filled with Girl Scouts selling their cookies or Boy Scouts selling chocolate and I tell them, in no uncertain terms, why I will not give them money. The other day, I had the pleasure of doing so in my local Wal Mart. It's very true that their organization does great things for youth, but not for all youth. I make sure that those kids will always remember that a big, no nonsence gay man told them that until their organization stops discriminating against LGBT people, the gay wallet will stay closed. I'm sure that when they got home, they had tales to tell their parents.
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Post by burner on Jul 25, 2011 0:53:19 GMT -5
Burner. on many occasions, I have walked up to a table filled with Girl Scouts selling their cookies or Boy Scouts selling chocolate and I tell them, in no uncertain terms, why I will not give them money. The other day, I had the pleasure of doing so in my local Wal Mart. It's very true that their organization does great things for youth, but not for all youth. I make sure that those kids will always remember that a big, no nonsence gay man told them that until their organization stops discriminating against LGBT people, the gay wallet will stay closed. I'm sure that when they got home, they had tales to tell their parents. Prydeguys, I hear you and I understand what you're saying. I guess it would depend upon the age of the scouts sitting at the table as to whether I'd think about following suit; the real young ones wouldn't have much of a clue as to what it's all about while the older ones certainly would. But I MUST point something out: While the BSA is unashamedly anti-gay, the Girl Scouts are not, and to my knowledge never have been. You can buy their cookies without guilt. ;D
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Post by Youn0469 on Jul 30, 2011 21:48:42 GMT -5
Pryde: Whereas I agree with you in taking a stand against the homophobia of the BSA, I don't agree with your approach.
As a private organization the BSA is able to select its membership and be selective, freedom of association. I think what a lot of people get hung up on is that the BSA is chartered by the US government. Which, by today's standards is merely symbolic. To my knowledge it doesn't include any special tax breaks or statuses.
Pryde, you fought for LGBT rights from within criminal justice, correct? is that not the same way that I am fighting for equal recognition within the BSA?
You tell the little boys and girls that they "gay" wallet is closed to them. In my experience, hostility only brings about hostility. By saying "no" the impression that those youth are going to get from you is that you are an ornery old kook, and not the lovable and boisterous man that we know. Wouldn't it not be better to approach the whole thing with civility and say "hey, look, I think it is great that you are supporting something you like. Did you know that your organization discriminates against people like me? This is why I wish not to support the larger group."
You are saying the same thing, but in different tone.
Just some food for thought now...time to sleep! It's been a long week!
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Post by bluepride on Jul 31, 2011 13:14:44 GMT -5
Ooooooo! Your move, Carroll! Personally, I don't see the point in going up to a group of little girls or boys and talking to them about things that they most probably have no concept of. The kids aren't concerned with things like discrimination and other's opinions. They're just kids. Did you ever go up to their parents and voice these opinions? Even then, chances are they wouldn't care if a scout was gay. It's the hierarchy and the bureaucracy that pulls all the strings in the disagreements between the BSA and "the gays" . And it sure doesn't seem to be as big a deal as it was 10-15 years ago. I'm glad you stick to your guns on this, Josh.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 31, 2011 16:15:11 GMT -5
Bluepride, It's funny how the time goes by so fast. I didn't realize the James Dale issue was so long ago. Still, gay people do not all think with the same mind and that's a good thing. I don''t believe in turning the other cheek and I have no problem with meeting histility with hostiility. If we didn't meet hostility with hostility, they would have kicked our asses in Puerto Rico. If we didn't meet hostility with hostility, the cops would still be beating us up in the Stronewall. The gay community needs diplomats but it also needs worriors. The two, working in tandem, have served our community well. If it were not for the "In your Face" worriors, that walked into the streets 40 years ago, and they are still in the streets, the "let's be nice" people would still be cowering in their closets. The "Let's be nice" people stand on the shoulders of the worriors and not the other way around. I am one hundred percent worrior and proud of it.
Still, I think it's great to have and share oppinions. It's ok to agree to disagree. We all have different ways of trying to get to the same place. I'm comfortable on my path as everyone else should be on theirs.
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Post by Youn0469 on Jul 31, 2011 19:57:04 GMT -5
BP, you are right, many scouts do not know of the discrimination of the BSA. Personally I didn't up until a couple years ago.
Many within the rank and file of Scouting would rather the membership be left up to the individual unit rather than by the national council. There is hope!
Pryde, I'm glad that you stick up for what you think is right. I am doing the same, just in a different manner. I believe it is easier to make change from within. I think by making people, i.e scouts, aware that GLBT people are just as scout worthy as they are will eventually change minds.
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Post by bluepride on Aug 1, 2011 12:48:30 GMT -5
As you well know, I've been in the fight for decades. And in that time, I've seen what works and what doesn't work. And I also know that tactics need to change over time, to adapt to a changing world. And as much as I get frustrated at the way some of our fellow "activists" may do things from time to time, I still think things need to be done. My point was that I didn't think going up to a couple of 8 year old girls, bitching and moaning, was going to do anyone any good.
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Post by bluepride on Jan 14, 2012 18:51:50 GMT -5
Damn...it's frikin' cold out!! I guess summer is officially over! After all, it is January! Tonight I'm staying in where it's nice and warm and cozy. And I'll be fighting off the sniffles!
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Post by edmontongreg on Jan 14, 2012 20:55:27 GMT -5
It is -4c here and starting to snow. It is going down to -25c sometime soon. The drivers will test the patience of Emergency Services. It appears they already have on two freeways in the city. But we have had a soft Winter.
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Post by hcsodale on Jan 14, 2012 21:32:55 GMT -5
I KNOW y'all don't really want to hear how bad it is down here........
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Post by bluepride on Jan 14, 2012 22:36:12 GMT -5
I KNOW y'all don't really want to hear how bad it is down here........ YOU WOULDN'T DARE......!!!!!!
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